I dont know why we dont just start at 11:00 to 6:00. heck, lets just do year round school , 7 days a week and do 4 hours a day. We could then cut out lunches and just have "snack time" in place....

Hey, heres a better idea, lets get parents to act like parents......I know, too much to ask

Do you have proof that starting at 11 is better for them? Do you have evidence that a 7-day school week works? If so, please present them. Until then, go read up on the research and come back when you have something intelligent to say.

I like snakes.

Agreed. It seems more and more kids are trying to be over-achievers these days. Drop some of this workaholic style living and the sleep deprived teen becomes yesterday's issue.

John, a later start isn't going to solve this issue. If your son starts school later, that just shifts the times for him. He will get home from school later, start his homework later, be done later, and get to bed later. In your son's case, at least, the problem is the amount of homework if it is taking him this long to do it.

Unfortunately, like Mari said starting school later won't do anything. Your son will just be up until 2am from now on. He either needs to drop an extracurricular activity to get more sleep or just put up with it. We all went through it, hell, I remember pulling all nighters in college and going to an 8am class the next day half asleep.

John: Are you are telling us that your child does nothing but go to school (starting at 7), participate in one extra curricular activity, and come home and relax for a bit, do his homework and so on...he is in bed at midnight?

If this is true (I'd have no idea), then it sounds like the problem is with this program, and not school starting time. Anyone with a brain realizes what Mari just posted at 9;54.

I guess you're calling my generation a bunch of narcissists with no work ethic. My high school didn't start until 9 a.m. and that was almost 50 years ago!

Educate yourself on why kids can't go to bed early, instead of spouting off garbage about why you THINK they can't. When you talk without knowledge, you're the one who sounds like the idiot with no ethic.

Well, Columbia, apparently your school starting at 9:00 caused a deficit in your reading comprehension skills.
I am not equating the shortcomings of the current generation coming out of school with school start times. This narcissistic attitude with no work ethic is the result of years of coddling and bending to the will of the child. Kids today are given trophies for participation, they are not expected to do any household chores, and they are given anything they want. Old ladies in my neighborhood can't even find kids to shovel snow for a few bucks because the kids are given any money they need for nothing. This idea of changing school start times so kids can sleep in is just a continuation of that trend.
Before you call someone an idiot, do some research, talk to employers, look around at what is going on in the real world.

YOU are telling ME to do some research? When I've seen direct links to all sorts of testimonies and articles saying that "going to bed earlier" is not the issue, yet you spout that it is... who's the idiot who hasn't done the research?

I actually agree with your first part. Most of our problems today come from creating a sense of entitlement and never teaching responsibility. Kids shouldn't be given awards just for being there. Kids shouldn't feel entitled to get whatever they want.

This legislation has nothing to do with that. This wasn't a bunch of kids whining about getting up early. This was a bunch of educators and scientists going, "Why are kids having problems in school?" Thus, they began studies and they found out that teenagers have different sleep patterns than adults and schools were starting earlier and earlier.

We can definitely blame a culture of entitlement and irresponsibility. But changing the start time isn't because of that. If anything, the early start times that were created to cater to the convenience of lazy ADULTS was the reason we're in this mess.

Sullivan, per usual, you sound like an idiot. The issue isn't solved by going "TO BED EARLIER" - please try to comment on threads that you have at least a marginal grasp of the issue. Yes, I realize this severely limits the number of comments you'll make. No, no one thinks that'd be a negative.

Ah jag, as usual you swoop in to snipe without anything of substance to add to the conversation. Exactly how much grasp do you have of this issue, Einstein?

PHP you are making the assumption that all families have food enough for breakfast. Those that really need it , count on the school breakfast to feed their children. This allows the children to have at least 2 squares a day, lunch being the second. Not everyone is as fortunate as some of us.

Brian, your statement " Not everyone is as fortunate as some of us." shows the mindset that is part of the problem in this country. This assumption that being a responsible parent by working for a living and only having children that you can afford to raise is somehow due to LUCK rather than HARD WORK is the basis of this entitlement attitude that says the rest of society should be responsible for your irresponsible breeding. While there are certainly exceptional circumstances that can put a parent in the unfortunate position of needing help, most cases are just pure irresponsibility.

PHP, you are what's wrong with this country. The only whining I hear is from a bunch of uneducated idiots that can't accept when science proves them wrong. I'm sure there was whining when they found that Blacks weren't inferior or the Universe didn't revolve around the Earth.

God help us if your kid turns out anything like you. It's people like you passing down your ignorance that create conflict in the face of progress and intelligent growth. Do us a favor and die off, so the rest of us can move on with life. There's no place for your kind in the future.

Columbia Independent? You need to change your moniker to Columbia Liberal. LOL!

Why? Are you saying that Liberal = Educated? What's that make Conservative?

The Liberals are just as stupid, with their coddling of our criminals and illegal aliens, while taking away things like personal firearms and the death penalty. The only difference is that Conservatives say "Things were better in the past" while the Liberals say "Things will be better in the future". Neither side uses an ounce of their brain in determining the right path.

This issue isn't a Liberal versus Conservative issue. It's an Educated versus Idiot issue.

Well, Columbia, so as not to be an idiot, I have done some cursory searching on the subject of later school start times and academic performance. In just a short time of research, I see that the results of the various studies range from positive to inconclusive to no difference in academic performance with later start times. This range of outcomes is kind of a shaky basis for the changes that would need to be made in the transportation infrastructure, lifestyles of working parents, and school schedules that would be needed for later start times.
One thing to consider: If later start times made a truly significant positive effect on performance, wouldn't profit making companies have implemented this many years ago?

M S. You have obviously never been poor or you have forgotten what it was like to be poor. Not everyone is as privileged as you seem to be. You and those that think like you seem to be more of a threat to humanity than the liberals you are so quick to attack.
...so are you saying our children should go hungry when there really is no need for that to happen? If people waited to have children until they could "afford" them then, most people would not have children.

MS, I'd love to see how you're doing your "cursory research", because everyone else who's used academic research sources has found tons of evidence going back over a decade on this topic. Just so you know, Google and Wikipedia don't count.

Also, you can't compare adult workplace performance to teenage school performance. The whole point of this research was to show that teenagers are not the same as adults. They have different sleep rhythms, different developmental concerns, etc, etc. I mean, if we're all subject to the same rules throughout our lives, maybe we should start sending our Elementary School kids to jobs? After all, it works in third world countries!

Brian, I did not grow up privileged by any stretch of the imagination. My parents got me through a Catholic elementary school the old fashioned way, by hard work and sacrifices. I paid for both my graduate and post graduate degrees either myself or through employers picking up the tab. I am not saying kids should starve, but adults need to take more responsibility for their offspring.

its great there are studies out there, that are paid to do anything. But since theres enough to say that too early is bad, I'm sure so is getting off later, staying up later, ect. So the only answer is start later, cut the hours of schooling but extend the school year

Once again, the peanut gallery blames everything on political affiliation. I'm not liberal, but I do at least have half a brain and an education. You conservatives want to stick to the tried and true without any thought and using science to explore other options. Who's being lazy now?

Our education system sucks, it's true. It has nothing to do with the reasons above and has everything to do with teaching to the test. Guess what... that crap is a conservative idea!

You can't afford it? Howard County is one of the richest counties in the country, and THE richest in the state! If we can afford to blow our money on crap like renovating downtown Columbia, we can certainly afford to change our bussing system.

Not to mention, if you look at other counties and systems that have tried this, the cost has been negligible and actually SAVED them money. If they can do it, why can't we?

nope i apologize to all of you, you are always correct yes my kids are stupid yours are brilliant, today's youth are just as smart as their parents, your correct let them stay up till 1 am, start school at noon and end it at 3:30pm the ywill be ready for college and be a great members of the democratic party sitting at home collecting welfare. I really could careless to be honest all my children have been raised and are doing fine. As for the next generation of criminals coming out of the maryland school system, I am sure they will get their second chance for their hish school education in the GED program in jail, which one again gets paid for by the tax payers who already paid for the little criminal to get a education once before, but I am sure you are one of the ones who also thinks we should be sending our prisoners to the college course in jail too, also paid for by the tax payers who can't afford to pay for their own children to go but pay for the criminals and illegals. your right I am wrong I could careless if we even send them to school, let all sit at home and get stoned with mommy and daddy.

Sarcasm factor... failed. Stupidity factor... confirmed.

Politics has nothing to do with this. No one in my family is a Democrat. I don't support any luxuries for prisoners. And none of my grandkids stay up until 1 a.m. on a school night.

You only got one thing correct: You are wrong, we are right. As soon as you accept that, maybe you might pull your head out of your behind and start the process of becoming educated.

I agree...you gotta love solutions...bravo Danielle.

To Buck Harmon, Yes, there are facts that can show Montgomery County has the finest school system in Maryland: scores on standardized tests, graduation rates, college acceptance and college graduation rates, etc. There is plenty of factual evidence available from both Montgomery County Public Schools and the Maryland State Department of Education. What can't be proved are your personal opinions, because that's what they are, personal opinions.
Additionally, this story is about teens' and adolescents' need sleep requirements being different than adults', which has been documented in study after study, and it is being ignored, to the detriment of our adolescents and teens. You can cite "the good old days," when you grew up, lazy parents, big government, wanting the schools to raise our children, blah, blah, blah, but you are ignoring vast amounts of reputable scientific studies, to the detriment of our youth. Our youth, not we, are the future of our country. If we want our country to have as great a future as it has had a great a past, we need to use the best information we have to do that. We need to use American ingenuity, because other countries are after us, in every way they can.

Sheep...sleep...whatever you think..the vast majority of these scientific studies, surveys that you refer to are funded either directly or indirectly by the government, and comply with their intent...you see the government likes having a majority of apathetic Americans to deal with...makes them easier to control...the trick..or truth lies with the funding...this school time change issue would only waste more government funds by contributing to the illusion of providing better learning opportunities. If you read my post you would see that I stated that the dumbing down process is a result of what is not included in the public curriculum...not what's being taught...I never spoke of good old days,lazy parents or wanting schools to raise our children...I would suggest that perhaps you need a little more sleep though..

Once again John...The evidence of my claims can be witnessed by the current state of our Country and economy....to deny this truth would have to be viewed as apathetic behavior... apathy seems to rule because of what is lacking in the public curriculum...
It's like breeding sheep or something..

John, just drop it. Please.

Bucky is a conspiracy theorist who believes that we are living in the End Times.

He is also a Defender of the Republic and you are of the group termed "sheeple". He is looking out for your best interests. Just agree with him and it stops.

1ke...Speak to the statements that I have made or wallow in the surrender of being a no name Patch Pigeon troll... Why don't you attempt to apply some logic to your take on the situation being discussed here...? It's because you are too busy crappin up every thread that you post on...a loser.

What on earth are you speaking of? A government curriculum? Can you link the document or documents?

Or are they secret and insidious?

1ke...This will be my last response to your posting as you are in fact a troll with nothing of value to add to this thread. Present your case for changing school times, counter the statements that I have made with regard to the topic or try something simple that fits your character ...like sitting on a tack or something...sad little pigeon..

Every human being is different...the generalizations claimed can't possibly be an accurate reflection of the needs for all students....metabolism alone ..forgetting about obesity and other factors would create false positives to any study...the body has a way of naturally meeting the demands of needed sleep and attempts to regulate it could be considered efforts in vain...pointless endeavor..

Was the massive surge in obesity by diet considered in these sleep studies..?
You can't regulate your way out of the mess that has been caused by the government controlled dumb down processes....public education at all levels might begin to make a difference...until then it will be business as usual regardless of school start/stop times.

That's how science works, Buck. You observe a significant population and make a generalization based on what you find. Will it fit everyone? No. Will it fit the majority? Yes.

We sure do have ways to adapt to new things, but are they all good adaptations? Probably not. Computers cause eyestrain and carpal tunnel syndrome. Urbanization causes mental health problems and cardiovascular disease. Modern hobbies cause obesity and social dysfunction. Should we just adapt to these?

Use your brain. Some things we should go forward on, some we should go back on, and some we should figure out new paths. In this case, we need to take a step back and realize we're messing with our kids' sleep schedules all out of convenience for our work schedules.

Kids need a lot of sleep and they don't start getting it until late in the evening. That's a scientific fact and we need to develop ideas from there. Later start times, like 8 a.m., seem to be working in other districts, so let's try it here.

Send your teenagers to bed at 9pm and get their butts up at 6am. It looks like nine hours to me.

And when their bodies don't enter their sleep cycle until 11 p.m... then what. Blame their biology on bad parenting?

CI yes blame the parents!!! You asked "And when their bodies don't enter their sleep cycle until 11 p.m..." . Well reset their internal clock. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/teens-health/CC00019/NSECTIONGROUP=2 . This will solve the issue. It is just like making them go to bed earlier.....hmmm and eliminating the stimuli.

Did you read that entire article? It doesn't say you completely change their internal clock. It says you can help them develop better sleep habits. That same article even highlights that teens sleep cycle doesn't start until 11 p.m. or later and that they need 9 hours of sleep.

The compromise isn't to say "Screw the teens internal clock" and force them to fit. It's to find the middle ground between that and letting their clock do its thing. That would be going to bed at 10 p.m. and getting up by 7 a.m., providing them a 9 hour window they can adjust healthily in.

The question is did you read the entire article? Yes they said that a teens sleep cycle doesn't start until 11 p.m but they also gave the solution to the issue. Did I read something incorrectly? I dont believe so.

You looked for what you wanted out of the article, took it out of context, and then presented that as evidence. I'd call that reading it WRONG.

Also, who says the Mayo Clinic is the ultimate expert? What about Psychology Today? What about Medical Discovery News? What about Stanford University? What about all the scientific research articles on the subject? Are they wrong because they don't agree with the Mayo Clinic?

How about you find something beyond one part of one opinion piece to counter the tons of evidence behind this legislation and its supporters.

Amen Bill Lawson !

School - 8:25 a.m. to 3:10 p.m.

A gap of almost SEVEN hours for any after-school activities, getting home, doing homework, dinner, and relaxing.

Sleep - 10:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m.

Gee, see how 24 hours works for everything?

This time frame conflicts with working parents and adds to rush hour traffic problems...current times work the same way within the same 24 hr. time frame..
And the perceived science must account for the fact that the majority of students are obese and therefore require more sleep....hardly a healthy request if the scientific facts are correct.

How does it conflict with working parents? If the average job is 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., what does it matter if the kid goes out for their bus at 7:00 or 8:00?

As for rush hour traffic, maybe we need to get more of the idiots (who never should have been given a license) off the road, and then the buses won't be the issue. Especially since in Columbia most buses only travel within a small radius of the school.

Why is it that none of the other districts that have implemented these plans have had problems with adult work schedules or heavy traffic?

For some reason you failed to address the obesity/ sleep issue Columbia Independent...is this prevalent fact being ignored by the government funded sleep studies?
Also making this statement..." maybe we need to get more of the idiots (who never should have been given a license) off the road, and then the buses won't be the issue."...is a cop out to this particular topic...be better Columbia Independent, and stop the name calling too.

A conversation can only be as mature as all of its participants. The more people sit here like children, refusing to accept hard facts, the more the conversation is going to be nothing but name calling.

I didn't address obesity, because I agree that it's an issue. Cutting physical education and activities from schools is extremely stupid. Obesity is just one factor behind tired kids; obesity, early start times, bad parenting, ALL need to fixed.

Who says you made it through without any issues? I've seen a bunch of your posts. Speaks wonders for how your were raised.

Hi Frank! Find a job yet? Yeah shame on my parents for doing the right thing. Like most of your kind you resent successful people!

Who's Frank and what is my kind? The kind who uses his brain instead of posting a bunch of ignorant crap? My kind is pretty awesome then!

Your kind, on the other hand, shouldn't have been allowed out of the pig sty. That is, if you even have the intelligence to shovel animal crap.

Typical, angry Lib with nothing to offer society except carbon dioxide. They have therapy for that anger. Something is obviously missing in your life.

Must be time to devolve again...fake posters always seem to peak at a low...it's the Patch trend...scientific study will prove my theory here

Typical Con to assume that someone who disagrees with him is a Lib. Liberals are just as stupid as you Conservatives; they just show it in different ways.

Who said I was a conservative? Hardly.

The way you act, if someone isn't a Conservative they must be a Liberal. Even if there is a middle ground, if someone doesn't agree with you, they can't possibly be in it. Gotta love that way of thinking...

Columbia: Exactly. There's a handful of active trolls on here (or just legitimately stupid) who basically characterize everyone who doesnt agree with their 'conservative' views as 'liberals'.

Although hard to blame them on some level, considering that's how it currently works in Congress...

Oh, and yes, there are liberal trolls here also. Equally worthless in their debate techniques.

Seepy, you are not a conservative nor a liberal. You are a crank. How many people will $30 billion feed at $4.30 a head? Gotta get up early in the morning to solve that one, I reckon.

Columbia - my children's high school bus comes at 6:40. I wake them at 5:45, they shower, get dressed, eat and out the door we go. Luckily they are the last stop to their school. Many of their friends get on their bus at 6:15. After being at school all day, my children play sports which usually practice goes until 5:00 but varsity game days usually the games don't even start until 6:45pm. Then there is still dinner, homework, laying out clothes for the next day and sports clothes. On practice days he are lucky to get an hour to themselves and not so much on game days. Our society and government has made it so much harder on kids now then when I was a child. College tuitions are crazy and your only hope is for scholarships. For every scholarship request there are thousands of star athletes with a 4.0 GPA. Parents are pushing their kids so hard to get bigger, faster, stronger and smarter with hopes of college aid. I do not know one person when I was a kid that belonged to a my and had personal trainers! It is crazy and very stressful on High School children these days. I really believe this, along with the body going through major natural changes(puberty), is a great reason why these children need more sleep. I don't think that with all this in mind, starting school at 9:00 would hurt any High School child.

Isn't that the governments goal? To control as much as they can?

Except then you're giving them an 8 hour gap for sleep, of which many might only get 7 because of their biology... out of the 8-9 they generally need. So, your schedule doesn't work scientifically. Got another solution?

CI I have another solution ...send their butts to bed earlier. Reset their clocks as I said above. The Mayo clinic seems to think it can be done. Why cant you or others?

Does the Mayo clinic say their clocks can be healthily reset to 9 p.m.? I didn't read that anywhere.

The mayo clinic doesnt specify a time. What they do is outline ways teens can get a more restful and longer period of sleep. No times were discussed in this article. But it seems obvious to me that the adjustment can be made at home instead of having the entire community change, even those without teen children.

Waiting for individual people to "do the right thing" doesn't work. Seat belts? Smoking and drinking during pregnancy? Cell phones while driving? All of these things had to be smacked into the stupid members of the community, before people began to accept the truth on the matter.

As seen in the comments in this article, it doesn't matter how much common sense, science, or logic you put into something. Many people are just too idiotic, lazy, or stubborn to accept it. So, maybe it is time to make the community change if it's too stupid to see why it should.

I hear what you are saying CI. I also agree there is a problem. I just dont agree completely with the solution. It takes a village to raise a child but in this case I believe the responsibility lies within the home.
See I remember being a teen and what is going to happen is if they start school later is that the teen will then stay up later. They will say to the parent we dont need to go to sleep until x time because school doesnt start until x time. So the problem is still there. Until there is a change at home, the problem is going to stay. Moving the time is putting a band aid on the issue.

I agree that the parent needs to be there as well, but I believe this is a combined effort. If you move the start time later, it is up to the parent to make sure the child doesn't abuse the change. Just because one group of children MIGHT abuse the change, doesn't mean the rest of them shouldn't benefit from that change. That's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Also, if the potential abuse is a concern, why has it not shown in the other districts that have changed their times? Why do they instead show an increase in student attendance and grades?

Maribel: I'd like to introduce you to simple math.

24 hours in a day. Doesn't matter when school starts (within common sense reason, biologically speaking). Getting up at 5:30 or 6am is within this common sense parameter.

If kids are only getting 6-7 hours of sleep a night, it's got NOTHING to do with school starting time. Moreover, getting up early in high school is good training for real life after school.

Your evidence, cherry picked to support your case, I suspect is largely anecdotal, and I'm sure several controls are not accounted for in your 'findings' such how much parental influence in children's lives, income status, does the kid have a part time job, and so on, and so forth.

Finally "Having an honest dialogue" about the matter, as you say, I find quite humorous, as your bed's already been made. It's more like the W.C. Fields quote - "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS"

Wow, Tim, could you sound anymore like a complete moron? Her evidence is cherry picked and largely anecdotal? She and others have done nothing but provide links to scientific studies and data supported by doctors and educators.

What exactly is YOUR background in this? What are YOUR credentials? Do YOU have more than anecdotes and your own self-important opinion?

You are right that there's no having an honest dialogue with people like you. You've made your mind to sit in the Dark Ages, ignoring every shred of hard scientific evidence thrown at you. Enjoy it, because there's no place for you but the past.

Columbia Independent sounds like a real "intellectual". What is YOUR background? What are YOUR credentials? Did you ever have to do a real days work in your miserable life? You must be a very insecure person to have to come here and tell everyone else how "stupid" we all are for not agreeing with some questionable "scientific study".
Keep living in your world of "scientific study" and the rest of us will continue to survive just fine in the real world.

So says the person named after a fictional idiot.

Questionable study? Did you read any of the STUDIES (note plural) since the late 90's on the topic? Or were you even capable of understanding them? Don't hate science just because you're too stupid to comprehend it.

If you want to call the Idiocracy you participate in as "living", feel free. The rest of us will continue to evolve, while morons like you will be relegated to the lowest common denominator in society.

Columbia Independent: Spewing insults, is that all you've got?
Sure seems that way, throughout this thread. Who's the moron again?
Here's a key about debates - when debates devolve to name calling, it means you lose. When you can't ever accept the possibility you might be wrong about something? You've already lost. I learn plenty on this forum.

If I was paid to, I am absolutely certain I could find contradicting research on the matter. Whereas I'm not being paid to do so, and whereas I understand the concept of sleep management for my child. They won't be 'suffering' in school with their 'brutal' 5:30 - 6am wakeup calls to go to high school. I'll remind them that millions of people get up at that time to go to work every single day.

This premise of starting school later is based on a fallacy. I am fairly confident that given time, my wife (an actual scientist) and I could pick apart the flaws of almost any research document brought about. Seriously, look at her links, they come from a SLEEP FOUNDATION WEBSITE. Gee, I wonder what type of research they'd be looking to post. Hmm.

Seriously, CI, you should read what you right. It's pretty sad.

So, you'll only think when you're paid to do so? Nice to know. The rest of us prefer to do it in most things.

Who cares if millions of people get up to go to work. You do remember the part where adults and teenagers are different physiologically, right? Or did you purposefully ignore that scientific fact?

Oh, I forgot. Any study performed by an institute that focuses on a specific area must therefore be biased. I mean, all those geologists must be lying about the Earth and let's not forget NASA, who obviously is so focused on outer space we can't trust anything they say about, you know... outer space.

Got anything else you, or your scientist wife, want to "right"?

The only debate is whether people like you will accept the data. Obviously, from what you just wrote, the answer is "no". Inconclusive studies? Show me one! They've provided plenty of conclusive ones, where's your inconclusive ones to counter them?

Europe isn't dominating science and technology? Funny, German, UK, France, Netherlands, Switzerland, and Sweden all seem to be doing pretty good when it comes to scientific articles, graduates, Nobel Prizes in science, etc. Sure, they may not be the US, but then again the US has how much population, capital, etc. compared to them?

So, your advanced degrees in Physics and Engineering qualify you to make decisions on human physiology, child development, and education... how? Also, claiming you have a degree in anything on the internet is like telling people you're a Nigerian prince that needs to transfer some money.

C.I. Almost all the studies I have been reading cite improvements in factors such as absence, tardiness, and mood due to later start times but I see almost no definitive, documented improvement in grades mentioned in any of these studies.
While Europe and Asia certainly generate a significant amount of academic achievement, the USA has been recognized as the world leader in technological growth and innovation for many decades. It is interesting to note that many school systems in both Europe and Asia include at least a half day on Saturday as part of their school week.
My only reason for mentioning my academic background was to point out that I may not be quite the "idiot" you feel comfortable insulting me with and I have never needed that much sleep.
I would question your education and qualifications to make the decisions you express here while, at the same time, stooping to childish insults to those who disagree with you.

No definitive improvement in grades? What criteria are you using?

What about this: http://www.cehd.umn.edu/research/highlights/Sleep/

"Additional data from the study done in Minneapolis schools showed that there was a significant reduction in school dropout rates, less depression, and STUDENTS REPORTED EARNING HIGHER GRADES."

Or this: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sleepless-in-america/201102/do-later-school-start-times-really-help-high-school-students

"Students at a school with a 8:37 AM start time slept about one hour more, had less difficulty staying awake in school, AND HAD BETTER GRADES than students at a school with a 7:15 AM start time."

Or this: http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/school-start-time-and-sleep

"Mary Carskadon, PhD, a renowned expert on adolescent sleep, cites several advantages for teens to get the sleep they need [including] BETTER GRADES"

The problem is you can't be satisfied, since you keep moving the goal post. You say there's inconclusive evidence, we provide it, but now it's not "definitive". You say that Europe doesn't dominate, yet when provided with six countries in the top 10 for science, you ignore them because they're not as good as the US.

You can have all the education you want, but if you can't apply it with common sense it's useless. I'm sure whatever I provide for my education and qualifications will be ignored, because it doesn't meet your criteria.

C.I. all three of those references you gave point to the exact same Minnesota School System study for their conclusions. Hardly, a comprehensive data set.

And there you are, moving the goal post again. Fine, what about this study of the US Air Force Academy: https://bearspace.baylor.edu/J_West/www/CarrellMaghakianWest.pdf

"We find that early school start times negatively affect student achievement - students randomly assigned to a first period course earn lower overall grades in their classes on the same schedule day compared to students who are not assigned a first period class on that day. We verify that this negative effect is not solely a result of poor performance during first period courses. Although students perform worse in first period classes compared to other periods, those with first period classes also perform worse in their subsequent classes on that schedule day."

Or this article, which mentions Minnesota AND Kentucky: http://library.thinkquest.org/25553/english/well/ages/teen/hspro.shtml

"Schools so far who have adjusted their schedule, such as Edina High, Minnesota, and Pike County, Kentucky, have had positive results, with improved grades and attitudes."

Here's one about research at the United States Military Academy (USMA) and the United States Navy’s Recruit Training Command (RTC): http://faculty.nps.edu/nlmiller/docs/Sleep_and_academic_performance.pdf

What more do you want?

C.I. have you even read the studies you are citing, other than the title? The Air Force study mentions numerous variable that could have affected the results. It also references an analysis by Peter Hinrichs (2011) of the school districts in Minnesota, Kansas, and Virginia where he finds no effect of school start time on academic achievement. The research paper for the USMA addressed total sleep time, not start time for classes. The Thinkquest article references the sam Minnesota an Kansas studies that everyone else has.

So, because they seem to concentrate on analyzing a hundreds of thousands of kids (remember, Minneapolis was entire districts, not singular schools), the science isn't applicable. Because they don't address specific concerns ("I want direct proof that later start time increases grades!"), the science is bupkiss. Because you, as an advanced degree holder in Physics and Engineering, won't accept the science as valid, all the people with educations in Child Development, Mental Health, and Education can go stuff themselves.

There's no getting through to you. You wonder why I call you an idiot? Because you could have a spaceship land in your front lawn with aliens coming out, and still claim it's a hoax and there's no life beyond Earth. No amount of education, degrees, etc. will work when the person who has them can't get a freakin' clue.

C.I. your arguments have been based on a very few studies, most of which seem to come to flawed conclusions.
You have found it necessary to call me names several times in this thread, which I see as a character flaw on your part that does nothing for your credibility.
I have given my opinion whether you like it or not. When I see some real, intelligent, definitive, quantitative research then my opinion may change. Otherwise, I am finished wasting my time replying to you so, take a hike.

And your argument is based on NO studies whatsoever. Not to mention, who says the conclusions of my studies are flawed? You?

Your opinion is crap because it's based on NOTHING. Maybe when I see some real, intelligent, definitive, quantitative comments come out of your mouth my opinion will change. Otherwise, have fun because I'm not going anywhere.

You are partly right. We can give kids the time they need to sleep well, but if they don't take advantage of it (because of a lack of parenting) or are unable to (because of poor diet and exercise), then it won't work as well as hoped.

However, you can give kids all the diet and exercise they need, and if they don't have the appropriate time to sleep or the parental monitoring, it won't help with their exhaustion either.

You need all factors. You need enough time and at a period that fits their sleep cycles. You need appropriate diet and exercise. You need parents to do their jobs. At least HB1462 is a step toward solving one of the factors, and one of the only ones that the school system has control over. Schools can change times to create an appropriate sleep period; they can't make parents do their jobs.

That is a legitimate question. I wonder if anyone has studied the effect on children and school performance. I know I've seen studies on adult workplace effect, but we've established that kids and adults are different.

Kinda throws a little kink into all these arguments, eh?

Why does it throw in a kink? It's more information we'd like to have. It doesn't deny the evidence that has been presented.

So far, those for this legislation have shown opinions by professionals in health, human development, and education. They have shown studies on the effects of later start times in those districts or schools that have used them.

Those against this legislation have just voiced their own opinions, calling kids lazy, parents bad, and that their own personal story is proof to support their stance. They also claim that the studies are inconclusive, biased, and just plain bad... without providing anything but their opinion on it.

A lack of further evidence doesn't negate which group sounds more intelligent and educated on the matter.

C.I. The studies themselves reveal the uncontrolled variables and lack of solid conclusions. If you actually read them, you might see this.

Where? Where in the studies did they have no solid conclusions? Please provide a link and/or a direct quote.

See my reply to your last listing of studies above.

Columbia Indep. you have provided no proof for any of your arguments. Just hot air. Must be an academic!!!

No proof, CP? At least M. Sullivan acknowledges the existence of the studies constantly referenced. You're such a moron, you can't even find the links, let alone read and understand them.

Gotta love how you equate "hot air" with "academic". If someone of higher learning is your opposite, what's that make you?

Makes me a genius! Keep spewing hot air it's entertaining.

An idiot like you WOULD believe the opposite of higher learning is "genius". Keep it up, it's entertaining... like watching a monkey try to figure out how to get that banana with the stick.

The majority of students succeed? What standard are you using? Certainly not according to OECD world education rankings, where we're #14 for Reading, #17 for Science, and #25 for Math. Also not according to Pearson, who puts us at #17 for overall cognitive ability and educational attainment. There's plenty more that notes how much we're getting beaten in the educational department by other countries, so I'm not sure how you see this as "success".

Millions upon millions of successful literate and educated people? 99% literacy sounds good... until you see that that's behind 24 other countries. We rank 12 out of 36 for citizens with college degrees, with only 40% of our country holding at least an Associate's degree. Millions and millions sounds good, until you compare it to the big picture.

As for your analysis of the "simple solution", you are wrong. The districts and schools that have done this? Didn't cost them millions and in some cases it cost them LESS. Kids didn't end up staying up later because they had extra time, they kept their usual bedtime and slept in the extra hour.

You can sit there and claim we can find studies or research to back any argument. Yet, you have yet to find one that supports your opinion. Until you do, your opinion means jack all.

Exactly my points CI...the current government approved dumb down curriculum is failing our students miserably...The time has come to improve the curriculum considerably, not monkey around with time slots in hopes that things will get better.
Proof...the past 3~4 generations have been subjected to curriculum that meets the low standards set by both state and federal requirements...if it weren't for these low standards our Country would not be in the apathetic poor state that currently resides. The economy sucks, government has failed and things don't seem to be getting better...toying with this kind of silly mission (HB1462) only prolongs the agony. The focus should be on adding real content that will make a difference in the lives and education of American students.

We mostly agree, Buck. The area where we split is on how important the time shift is. You consider it not important in the face of horrible government education problems; I consider it one important factor side-by-side with those bad programs. By doing the time shift, you're setting up a better environment for learning, an environment that now needs better material.

You can't build a house without a foundation. Providing a healthy learning period that fits a teenager's sleep cycle is that foundation. Once you do that, you can work on the rest of the house.

That foundation is in fact critical CI...but even the foundation must be placed on solid footers...using the building analogy the footers would be a healthy and complete curriculum first.. that would in fact support the higher learning opportunities above. The footers would be the basis of the educating process, we are after all speaking of the government educating it's citizens here...not parental or teaching that comes from the home.

Another idiot comes out spouting the same garbage, without reading ANYTHING.

Who says elementary schools will be switched to 7 a.m.? Who says you will pay more in taxes?

Well if we move HS to later. Either a) someone will have to take the earlier times or b) you will need more buses to transport the children; more buses and more bus drivers cost more money! You don't think it is going to come from no where!

Did you see what the solutions in the many other districts and school systems was?

Minneapolis has been like this for 15 years; Arlington did it over 10 years ago. Schools in Kentucky, Florida, etc., all over the past decade. None of them have reported increased taxes and transportation problems because of later start times. In fact, some of them reported decreased costs...

I did. Also note that the successes you cite in those school districts are very small school districts. Edina, MN has a student population of 7,500 students. To give you an idea one of our smallest county Caroline County has a student population 5,500. Howard county (a medium size school district) has 50,600! Arlington which you cite is 4,600. In the largest county you cited in Kentucky which was only 32,000 most of the High School kids self transported and they flipped the elementary school kids which you are argueing does not have to happen.

When you resort to name calling you do not get people to be sympathetic to your cause and relating this issue to the ADA and school integration is insulting to me and many other people. from a practical point of view school integration actually meant less buses and Universal Design Engineering to comply with the ADA is something everyone can use.

This bill seems to require everyone to just flip. Not all counties in our state put alot of resources into schools and the few they have get rediverted from classrooms to comply with this. Also of note is that on your cite each school district made their own choice; a choice you wish to deny in this state!! I agree later times would be better but the practicality of it does result in the two consequences I named. To deny that it would be those consequences is disengenious on your part. Should we pass it and then let people find out after it is to late the consequences of such a bill? If we all had transportation like Baltimore City it would not be an issue but we don't all have the same issues in all 23 school districts in this state!

"Also of note is that on your cite each school district made their own choice; a choice you wish to deny in this state!!"

Who is denying the state? They're trying to pass legislation to study it. How is that denying anyone anything? If the task force finds it's a good thing, then I'm sure it will be up to each school system whether to enact it.

Columbia, What is the need to form a STATE task force than to study this if you don't think this will require a STATE mandate. This is how STATE laws are crafted. If you truly believed in LOCAL decision making by each of the states 23 LEA's than you would let each county make a decision for itself to look into this. Some have already and concluded that while it sounds wonderful in theory the practicality is that it would cost to much money to implement without putting elementary children out at 7 AM!

If we end up with a state task force could you accept that as a conclusion? Or is their only one outcome you want here?

I find it extremly rude that you keep refering to people as TOols, jerks, idiots, stupid, and a variety of other names on here. While I understand the Patch has TOS that are pretty uniform you would have been banned by some Patch sites for continueing to throw personal insults at people. You do not engender anyone to your cause....in fact you turn some people off.

"Some have already and concluded that while it sounds wonderful in theory the practicality is that it would cost to much money to implement without putting elementary children out at 7 AM!"

Which? Please provide a link to a local analysis that shows that it would cost too much money.

And if someone doesn't want to be called an idiot, perhaps they shouldn't act like an idiot. There is a severe lack of intelligence and education on here, and I will call them like I see them.

Harford did about 10 years ago! I don't have a link to it I simply remember the BOE was talking about it and concluded they couldn't fund it.

So, your proof is a purported study performed by a single county a decade ago, of which you cannot provide a link.

Wow.

At the moment I don't have time to look for board minutes on the website for something I know exsists. You do similar things as well. I have taken your word forr it....do you not return the same courtesy?

There are links a plenty that many people have provided on this topic supporting later school start times. I don't have to provide them because they're scattered throughout these comments, comments on similar Patch conversations, and via the organizations supporting this legislation.

So other people have to link info....but not you?

Why should I repost what's already there? Are you too lazy to go back and look?

And at least I told you where the information was; you haven't told me where to find anything that supports your statements.

Definitely uptight.

If you and the other trolls on here are indicative of the "rest of society", then we're more royally screwed than previously thought.

Gomer, I think you may be right. Or, there may be a medication issue here.

I suppose your advanced degrees in Engineering and Physics make you an expert on human behavior and psychiatry too, right MS?

No, but it does help me to read a study and draw conclusions from it other than just the title.

The sad part is that you think you are intellectually superior. Shouldn't you be teaching some AA degree wannabe's right now?

Getting laid by the likes of you would probably bring on a host of other anxieties like, "How did I ever get so desperate?"

MS, apparently it doesn't allow you to read or draw conclusions CORRECTLY. You just take whichever part you like and keep running with it. Then when told differently, even by people with expertise in this field (not me, but the others supporting this legislation)... we're all wrong.

CP, compared to you, EVERYONE here is intellectually superior. Funny you mention AA classes, because I bet you couldn't even pass the placement tests to get into one.

Is that some sort of joke? The handful of trolls on here who try and twist every single issue in the known universe into bashing liberals are the ones who need to grow up, get a life, and quit embarrassing themselves. This is about freaking school times and has nothing to do with the garbage spewing from your mouth. Go do something productive with your day for once.

I don't know if CI is a liberal or not, but he/she is sure spewing out the insults today.

I guess that's what you do when you don't have valid arguments and you know as much.

Thanks for proving my point jag!

CP, you knew someone would prove your point didn't you? I could have guessed 3 or 4 names would have stepped up and given us a show.

Fun times Sanchez.

I have grandchildren that might be effected...

I have a granddaughter who would be affected.

I'm sure they said the same thing when they integrated schools or forced them to build handicap ramps. "Just more government legislation forced down our throats!"

BTW people did say those things and I am not saying they were correct in those instances but this is not the ADA and Integrated Schools. You are not telling the whole truth if you can not recognize the drawbacks to this!

And you're not using your brain if you can't read the results from Minneapolis, Alexandria, and others that show that the benefits outweighed the drawbacks. Not to mention, many of the drawbacks claimed here never manifested.

You still have not explained to me how a school district of less than 5,000 is indicative of one like Howard county that is 10 times larger? If it worked so well in Arlington why did Fairfax, Faquier, Prince William or Loudon county not adopt this? I will tell you why Arlington county is 26 square miles. It is the smallest county in the entire state of Virginia.

Fairfax has proposed it but found resistance from ignorant parents scared of change and how it might affect THEM (rather than their kids). Despite that, this has been brought up among the school board again.

Fauquier and Prince William usually follows suit with whatever Fairfax does. Guess they can't think for themselves.

Loudoun County high schools start at 9 a.m. already.

And I love how you try to disparage Arlington County, despite it being the second highest population density in the entire state. In fact, many of the highest density areas in Virginia have later start times: Alexandria @ 8:35, Falls Church @ 8:00, Charlottesville @ 8:55, Winchester @ 8:25.

Got any more you want to try?

It is not disparaging but the legistics of transporting so few kids who are centrally packed so close together is far easier than 10 x's as many kids who are further spread out. Alexandria is very similar to Arlington in this respect. and notice Loudon county got it's high schools starting at 9 by moving it's elementary start times up!

You mean like how Howard County schools work, where children can only attend those within their select geographic area and busing is practically non-existent?

And yes, Loudoun shifted their start times... and it's worked, hasn't it!

You told me we would not have to shift start times or raise taxes to buy lots more buses to do this all over the state like you propose. So explain this to me how in a large county is this going to work? I myself being the product of a PG county school that started at 9:30 AM am not opposed to the idea but I know people will not give more money to schools to implement this which will drain resources from the classroom. I am opposed to that. I am also opposed to Elementary school children being out in the dark at a bus stop like this week. So please explain to me how Harford, Fredrick, Howard all make this work not to mention Anne Arundel, PG, Montgomery, and Baltimore County.

I said some places did not shift their times, I didn't say that would necessarily be the case in Maryland. Each district or school dealt with it in their own way.

I can't speak for other counties; this is a Columbia patch and I can only speak for Howard. Most kids will not be affected; they take separate transportation as-is, so switching their times won't matter.

How will it work? I guess that's what the study will do. How did it work in Henrico County, VA, which has a population bigger than Howard?

The fact that you're willing to throw it out because YOU fear some possible bad factors, without accepting that this has already been successfully enacted in a variety of locations (from high-density cities to low-density suburbs), speaks more for your own paranoia than the program itself.

Henrico county enlarged their bus fleet which costs money. They have 600 buses Howard does not. When I counted buses on their bus schedule this year I got about 500. How much does an extra 100 buses cost?

And you're saying that Howard County, one of the richest places in the entire country, can't afford it?

Not all counties in Maryland are "able to afford it" or "wish to afford it"
This is my problem with a state mandate; which the more I hear you and others talk is your ultimate goal.

Then maybe those counties that can't afford some things, need to find other options to adhere to any statewide mandates. Don't blame common sense because of places like PG County, where corruption is rampant and the locals keep voting in people like Jack Johnson. I mean, we've got a thief like Ullman in office, and we still can somehow afford it.

The counties with financial issues I speak of are not PG, Montgomery or even Howard. Some cases you may not even know their names!

As I said, they can figure out how to adhere to any statewide mandates. There's always a way. I doubt every county or system that uses later school times is "wealthy".

Hey Average Joe. Thanks for actually reading these studies, unlike some people who apparently only read the title.
Some additional points that I noted earlier:
The Air Force study mentions numerous variables that could have affected the results.
It also references an analysis by Peter Hinrichs (2011) of the school districts in Minnesota, Kansas, and Virginia where he finds NO EFFECT of school start time on academic achievement.
The research paper for the USMA addressed TOTAL sleep time, not start time for classes.
The Thinkquest article references the same Minnesota an Kansas studies that everyone else has.

"Regardless of when they get home from school or when they have to go, they will stay up late, probably later if they figure they don't have to be in school till 9 or later!"

Proves you didn't read a thing above. Looking at the districts that already used this program, the kids DIDN'T do what you said. And that's not just Minneapolis, but Alexandria and a bunch of other individual schools.

So, because you dealt with a moron who couldn't count, you're going to ignore everything all these professionals, studies, and analyses say about later school start times.

You don't seem to get that they are BOTH problems and BOTH need to be fixed.

You mean like the fact that most of the responses FOR the legislation at least follow some form of coherent English, whereas many of the responses AGAINST the legislation look like they're written by the same uneducated children that are symptoms of the system?

And you only care about your uneducated "Blame the parents!" issue. Makes me wonder if you came out as dumb as when you went in early.

And 1ke, if they read poorly for those answers they won't get them! I wasn't referencing the status of Mercantile ( i'm retired and live in Fl. now), just making a point! I don't think anyone here or anywhere doesn't agree that sleep depravation has negative effects, but to expect us to buy into that sleeping from 6 a.m to 8 a.m ( allowing for more sleep or needed teen patterns) will create higher I Q's is a bill of goods you'll never sell me on.What about all the students who go to school now at the same times and from 7 a.m or 8 a.m, and do well? I'm sorry, but intelligence isn't created soley between 6a.m. and 8 a.m.I really don't care, change it......but ten years from now if the standardized test scores don't go up noticably....then what will you blame it on?

Who said later sleep times will lead to higher intelligence? Where did you pull that crap from?

The studies show that later sleep times led to less absence, less dropouts, less depression, higher alertness, and higher grades. Where do you read IQ tests in that?

Wow, you classify me and you don't know JACK about me. About the only thing you got right was the "educated" part, which if you're using that as an insult makes you... what?

Once you've taught teens at a military academy, come back and talk to me. Until then, remember your place as the town idiot and shut your uneducated, inexperienced trap.

And your two examples (that we have no proof exists) mean what in the face of studying thousands of students?

We can all provide stories on someone we (supposedly) know. Until those stories are put into comparison against a large sample, it means jack all.

Wait... their GPA is 98-something... ? WTF are you talking about? GPA is a 4-point scale!

Are you talking about IQs? Since you mentioned Einstein, I have to think so. You're so stupid you don't know the difference between a GPA and an IQ and the scales used?

And an IQ of 98-99 is below average! These kids were stupid, at least according to IQ tests (which are only good for measuring logic, math, and reason).

By the way, no one knows Einstein's IQ rating, since he never took an IQ test. Modern estimates place him between 160 to 180.

And all of this is moot, because later start times have nothing to do with IQ tests, although increased alertness and health might lead to some kids learning the math and logic better.

You really are completely uneducated. The IQ score has no limit. 100 is average; 145+ is genius and 70- is mentally retarded. At least, if you're using Stanford-Binet.

How does teaching kids from 9th to 12th grade not apply to kids in 9th to 12th grade?? Where does that train of logic follow?

And our school didn't start until 8 a.m., which would be fine (even if I'd like later).

Don't blame me for speaking the truth. You're right, you're probably not a liar, but you are a complete and total moron.

GPA, IQ, the same thing? That's like saying head size and intelligence are the same thing! What's next... our personalities are dictated by the stars? A good leeching will restore the off-balance humours?

And then you go and start talking conspiracy theories when you don't have any real counter to your own stupid comments. You say our studies are countered by other studies... where?! Provide them!

The more you sit here, spouting that idiotic crap out of your mouth, the more you prove how low your IQ... or GPA, according to you... is.

I totally accept the science. It equals better achievement or at a minimum there is a high correlation between the two. If logistics can work than by all means but we have 23 different school districts with 23 issues and what works for Talbot County May not work in Fredrick and what works in Baltimore City may not work in Alleghany County.

This is advocating for a state mandate (if not now eventually). I had two concerns one was that this would be a bait and switch. Move Elementary Schools to the early hours. I really agree that putting anyone at a 7 AM bus stop is not good but a High School Kid is much better than an Elementary School kid if I had to make a choice between the two for a variety of reasons, not all because of the morning either. My other concern is that it would increase school budgets so that Local School systems would have to cut academics to pay for it. When Talbot count needs to add 4 buses to make this work that is achievable. When PG has to add 200 buses that is a real expensive proposition.

I see your group has some suggestions. Some are feasible but some in this state are unconstitutional. You can not charge a transportation fee for school in Maryland. I am not sure of the Constitutionality of an Opt out provision and if it would achieve the desired result.

I think leaving it up to local Board of Eds is a much better way to go than a forced mandate.

BTW the rude tactics of Columbia Independent does not help your cause. As someone who has questions being called words like Troll, Neandrethal, Idiot, Stupid, Dumb, Toll etc. for asking questions makes me not at all sympathetic to your cause, it makes me think the whole group is verbally abusive, irrational and unwilling to actually work for a solution.

So, you're going to ignore and negatively label a professional group working toward a legislative goal because of the actions of a vocal, anonymous, unaffiliated voice on the internet?

I suppose you think all gun owners are a bunch of old, white, crazy, redneck men because of the vocal minority as well.

Columbia, That is the way the world works. When you advocate for a cause and you are the one interacting with people they will associate the cause with your actions. If you want people not to think those things perhaps you should consider how you address people. If someone gave you sour milk the first time you had milk and told you it was Milk you might never want to drink milk again!

This isn't psychology, where we associate a behavior with a negative consequence, this is a major philosophical and social issue. You can't apply the principles of operant conditioning to internet arguments, especially as a reason for your stance.

You didn't come on here to discuss an issue only to be burned by one side, turning you off. You came on here already having an opinion, posted a bunch of misinformed nonsense, and then became upset when verbally attacked for it. You didn't choose your stance after a single supporter of HB1462 was rude to you, you knew how you felt all along.

So no, there's no sympathy, no apology, no "OMG, I'm hurting the issue!" All I'm doing is talking to people that have already chosen what side of the fence they sit on.

I came here to discuss, learn more and begin to make an informed decision. I find the science behind this to have some credibility. My next question, like any task force would be the practicality. Telling me it will just work is not going to make it happen. Over ridding the local BOE on this is also something I have concerns about. The advantage to local BOE policy is they can see what is best for their county large or small. What is financially feasable for Howard may not be for Wicomico. We have some counties in this state (and no PG is not one of them) who have serious financial issues with affording this.

If students were required to watch this testimony they would be sound asleep within minutes...perhaps this could be mandated viewing for all students beginning at 9 pm, to insure a minimum of 8 hrs...

"That said, all this talk about teenage sleep patterns is a joke. Send your kids to bed at a decent hour."

And someone let the monkeys out of the zoo again. You've got educators, doctors, psychologists, etc. all tell you how biology works, but YOU don't agree with it therefore all of their science must be bull.

No wonder we're in the state we're in with neanderthals like you opening your mouths and voting.

You stay classy CI. You stay classy.

With "kind hearted souls" like you advocating for the cause, what could go wrong?

And with people like you saying the same nonsense over and over fighting against the cause, what can go right?

Why is that better? If Elementary schools start at 7:30 AM they will get done school at 1:30 PM.

Watch the testimony. They don't want to start anyone at 7:30. One suggestion was to maintain the staggering, but start it at 8:00. They also noted that this legislation was to create a task force that would hammer out the details, rather than just dump a time shift on everyone.

so 8 to 2? That leaves elementary school kids home alone for 3 hours? I thought you said counties would get to make their own decisions? The first thing a task force has to determine is if there is a benefit, than is the benfit out weighed by the draw backs which do exist and are real. Than the task force makes recomendations.

I said 8 was the earliest they would start, I didn't say that was when Elementary would start.

What if it was the same staggering, just shifted by 35 minutes. 8:00 - 2:45 for High School, 8:45 - 2:30 for Middle School, and 10:00 - 4:30 for Elementary School?

That might work but you have the issue for Elementary Schools. My original response here was to Jae.

What issue with the Elementary Schools?

Leaving Elementary age kids home with no one to supervise for lengthy periods of time.

How does 10:00 - 4:30 differ from 9:25 - 3:55 for periods that elementary school kids are home alone?

Typical Buck. If you don't agree with the science, it must be funded by the government and therefore biased. Let's just get rid of science altogether, so the Men in Black can't control our lives.

It's not that I don't agree with the science Colunbia Independent, It's the fact that the government finances most of it, and it is not being used in a way that has been proven to solve the perceived issues at hand. Your one way response is typical in not addressing the real issues that seem to deprive students of sleep, And for some reason HB1462 sidesteps the additional issues pointed out by the science. You can task force this one till the cows come home and it won't get students any more sleep than counting sheeple will...good science is important and must receive equal consideration in the perceived problem solving process...my earlier posts address these issues which HB1462 ignores. Did you watch the video?

Who says the government finances most of it? What proof do you have of this government conspiracy of scientists?

I watched the video (and I concur it was boring), and I saw where there were concerns. However, those testifying made it clear that the hard answers were to be answered by this task force... not them. There ARE plans out there, they've been used successfully in a variety of systems, from small to large, rural to urban. The question is how they can be applied to Maryland systems, again something the task force will determine.

The problem is, you are so certain in your belief of government-controlled science that you've become positive that the task force CAN'T answer the questions. In the meantime, many of us believe the exact opposite; that if it worked elsewhere it can work here.

CI, You use the word conspiracy, not I, Just because government is heavily involved in funding research that could potentially lead to more government control over the lives of it's citizen's is certainly not a reason to consider it a conspiracy...it's just the way it is...as free thinking human beings we have the choice of believing what we choose to based on the information available... only if we seek the information needed though..I would suggest that you seek the info needed with regard to the other side of this equation as well....it is, after all nothing more than an equation at the bottom line.

Unless you consider debate vitriol I would have to say that I don't quite understand the reason for your post Molly Brooks...could you please explain? How was your post productive to this topic..?

Calling people a neadrethal, zoo animal, idiot, dump, stupid, troll, toll etc. is vitriol! It also violates the TOS which this particular PATCH site does not seem to enforce!

Agree! I wouldn't consider this a debate. Debate is discussing opposing viewpoints - this is nothing more than nasty name calling.

The necessary science is not available M. Sullivan...this would indicate a flaw with the science that is being used here...they must have forgotten this very important point scientifically because it would,could alter the numbers considerably.

Good to hear the House listening with common sense for once. A shame they don't always do this.